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Artfldgr says:
Russian would attempt to make the situation reletive in some way... he would have to attempt to use something totally different to pony up a neg to meet the other neg he sees.
oh.. you said russians... sorry... : )
personally, they just softened their image, and that their attempts to use a kinder softer form of force are starting to slide.
most dont understand that the FSB, GRU, and Party are all in murderous competition with each other (by design). That each would like to get rid of the other two, but through a bizare form of checks and psychopathic balances, they remain.
ultimately this structure is meant to preserve the power base regardless of what happens. what the westerners do not want to understand is that such a state, can reform itself at will without repurcussions as would happen in the west. this limitation is what they project to the east, however this liimitation does not exist. in fact, the constitution can be changed at will at any time and so is just a token document that means nothing but what they want it to mean when they want it.
as if they're going to do it right "THIS" time
And there LaRussophobe, you have hit the nail on the head. its the same as my explanation of the wests socialists imagining a new kind of square different than all squares before it.
there can be no other outcome, because this is the outcome of socialism. the reason their planks for the west was for the west to adopt socialism, is that it rots things out from the inside, the huge wealth forces thugs to move from criminal organizations, to political ones. after all, if politicans make too much they cant be bribed, and if they cant be bribed, then what? well then the very job itself becomes lucrative in itself, and the sociopaths that worked organized perfidity, move on to state perfidity, chronism, etc. (ever notice that when they start a new program, they never staff it with the poor unemployed, but with other socialists?)
as far as western leaders... they have signed on to communism... which is why they dont protest.. they apologize, and so on... (also the fact that people tend to not want to deal with a crazed paranoid sociopath with nuclear weapons).
the new wealthy want socialism to freeze their state of wealth in place. to stop the machine from knocking their families off post evetnually.. as happen to all that gain wealth eventually.. it turns over and must be renewed, and so the wealthy get lazy and get passed. this is why they tend to side with socialism, feeling that if they help make it, they will be rewarded by being allowed to keep what they have.
though looking at the coutnry with the most billionaires in prison should make them take pause... but they dont..
because everyone is convinced that acorns grow up not to be oaks, but to be kangaroos.
if things go the way the defectors have said (even the defectors listed by russian), they intend to start a large conflict, while we are extended in all these small conflicts and our social malaise makes too many willing to wave flags at the gate.
the saving grace is that putins lack of self control, and such may make america wake up and trim socialist fat...
mcarthy was right, there were tons of agents all around (confirmed later by venona). and there ar tons of these govnoed, helping them.
do note that this is the attitude that FSB and such have towards those that are helping them in the west.
these people are nothing but govnoed according to intelligence. The contempt felt for them does not prevent the GRU and KGB from using them whenever they can. They do everything free, and they will even come to meetings in secure places like the Embassy.
The GRU usually makes use of the govnoed 'in the dark', in other words not saying what they are used for or how much they benefit from their services. They usually ask from them information about their neighbours, friends, acquaintances, fellow workers and so on. Sometimes one of them is asked to organise an evening party with one or another of his acquaintances, after which the GRU thanks him and tells him to forget what has happened. They are very good people, they forget everything.
this from a GRU defector (suvorov)...
you wonder about western leadership, but let me know when you noticed that western leaders had all adopted russian nicknames? let me know if you notied that they have used csar as a title... and let me know if you have noticed that they delegate powers in violation of the constitution (power is granted by the people to the state, and therefore the state has no power to delegate. it cant empower agencies with pwoer, but it has, in things like child welfare, where a social worker has more power than a police officer (no warrant, can take the kids without process, etc), and that practice is also soviet)
dont forget that they are trying to make a north american union... then you will have the soviet union again... the oceania soviet... the european soviet... and finally the north american soviet.
in order for us to kind of merge.. the us has dialoged to consensus, and figueres to make them happy it has to become more like them, while they lie and pretend to move more towards us... in thsi way, the slide is always biased.
When former Soviet dictator Mikhail Gorbachev visited Britain in 2000, he accurately described the European Union as “the new European Soviet.” He said this with obvious approval, since he sees the evolving EU as fulfilling his vision of a “common European home” stretching “from the Atlantic to the Urals,” as he described it in his 1987 book Perestroika. Mr. Gorbachev is a lifelong Communist overlord who has steadfastly refused to renounce Communism.
In fact, he defiantly remains a Communist. On December 23, 1989, Gorbachev declared to his fellow Soviets, “I am a communist. For some that may be a fantasy. But for me it is my main goal.” On February 26, 1991, Gorbachev said, “I am not ashamed to say that I am a communist and adhere to the communist idea, and with this I will leave for the other world.” He has repeated these sentiments many times. In his book he also stated: “I frankly admit that we are glad that the idea of a ‘common European home’ finds understanding among prominent political and public figures of not only Eastern, but also Western Europe....”
“Dictatorship can be established only by a victory of socialism in different countries or groups of countries, after which there would be federal unions of the various groupings of these socialist countries, and the third stage would be an amalgamation of these regional federal unions into a world union of socialist nations.” Stalin, the best leader russia ever had (according to neo russian education - do they know something we refuse to know?)
"United States government officials, elected and unelected, with enormous financial assistance from the tax-exempt foundations, have for many years been working to implement unconstitutional regional planning at the local, state, national and international level, all of this required for full implementation of a One World Socialist Government."
basically the way the world was, the US people wouldnt entertain anything having to do with the communists... so all this for 20 years has been nothing but an image campaign to confuse the issue...
Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world:
“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.”
he stopped running for president because he couldnt distinguish the goals of the communist party with those of the democrats.
this is why we have NEVER held russia to the horrors its accomplished... if we did that, then waht will happen to one world government of totalitarian communism...
or COMMUNITARIAN -- COMMUNist totalTARIAN
not even hiding it...
Artfldgr says:
"I am referring to structures, to certain ideologies being instilled, to the plans, the direction, the inevitable expansion, the obliteration of nations, which was the purpose of the Soviet Union. Most people do not understand this. They do not know it, but we do because we were raised in the Soviet Union where we had to study the Soviet ideology in school and at university. The ultimate purpose of the Soviet Union was to create a new historic entity, the Soviet people, all around the globe. The same is true in the EU today. They are trying to create a new people. They call this people "Europeans", whatever that means. According to Communist doctrine as well as to many forms of Socialist thinking, the state, the national state, is supposed to wither away. In Russia, however, the opposite happened. Instead of withering away the Soviet state became a very powerful state, but the nationalities were obliterated. But when the time of the Soviet collapse came these suppressed feelings of national identity came bouncing back and they nearly destroyed the country. It was so frightening." Vladimir Bukovksy
"The idea was very simple. It first came up in 1985-86, when the Italian Communists visited Gorbachev, followed by the German Social-Democrats. They all complained that the changes in the world, particularly after [British Prime Minister Margaret] Thatcher introduced privatisation and economic liberalisation, were threatening to wipe out the achievement (as they called it) of generations of Socialists and Social-Democrats -- threatening to reverse it completely. Therefore the only way to withstand this onslaught of wild capitalism (as they called it) was to try to introduce the same socialist goals in all countries at once. Prior to that, the left-wing parties and the Soviet Union had opposed European integration very much because they perceived it as a means to block their socialist goals." From 1985 onwards, "the Soviets came to an agreement with the left-wing parties that if they worked together they could hijack the whole European project and turn it upside down. Instead of an open market they would turn it into a federal state." Vladimir Bukovksy
one of the many tools they use is the redirection of islam against the west... and it was Alexander Litvinenko, that was pointing out the fact that this was what the soviet rulers were doing. after all, if he was a nobody, saying lies, why kill him? the fact that they muffed up is why we know, otherwise he would have died fast of stomach cancer, and no one would be able to say for sure.
ambiguity being the best of everything...
one of the reasons that Putins upset is that he thought that he was signing on to a european soviet that would be partners with the russian one, and china... what he found out was that the western power brokers were making their own kind, and that gorbachev was warned in 1989, by destaing what was to happen 15 years later. he eventually made a constitution that has no checks or balances... a straight complex grab for power.
all that would unravel if the world knew about all the games hidden in the open.
"the most likely outcome is that there will be an economic collapse in Europe, which in due time is bound to happen with this growth of expenses and taxes. The inability to create a competitive environment, the overregulation of the economy, the bureaucratisation, it is going to lead to economic collapse." "I have no doubt about it. There will be a collapse of the European Union pretty much like the Soviet Union collapsed. But do not forget that when these things collapse they leave such devastation that it takes a generation to recover. Just think what will happen if it comes to an economic crisis. The recrimination between nations will be huge. It might come to blows. Look to the huge number of immigrants from Third World countries now living in Europe. This was promoted by the European Union. What will happen with them if there is an economic collapse? We will probably have, like in the Soviet Union at the end, so much ethnic strife that the mind boggles." "I think that the European Union, like the Soviet Union, cannot be democratized. Gorbachev tried to democratize it and it blew up. This kind of structures cannot be democratized." Vladimir Bukovksy
you cant make a despot into an angel..
and much of whats going on, was seen as far back as the 60s...
Golitsyn, another defector, wrote in his 1998 book the peristroika deception.
Lenin advised the Communists that they must be prepared to "resort to all sorts of stratagems, maneuvers, illegal methods, evasions and subterfuge" to achieve their objectives. This advice was given on the eve of his reintroduction of limited capitalism in Russia, in his work Left Wing Communism, an Infantile Disorder.
If you examine the backgrounds of prominent Russian figures, you will find that they have long Communist Party/ KGB or Komsomol pedigrees. Yet for some inexplicable reason, the Western media have accepted their sudden, orchestrated, mass "conversion" to Western-style norms of behavior, their endless talk of "democracy," and their acceptance of "capitalism," as genuine. "Scratch these new, instant Soviet "democrats," "anti-Communists," and "nationalists" who have sprouted out of nowhere, and underneath will be found secret Party members or KGB agents," Golitsyn writes on page 123 of his new book. In accepting at face value the "transformation" of these Leninist revolutionary Communists into "instant democrats," the West automatically accepts as genuine the false "Break with the Past" — the single lie upon which the entire deception is based.
In short, the "former" Soviet Union — and the East European countries as well — are all run by people who are steeped in the dialectical modus operandi of Lenin. Without exception, they are all active Leninist revolutionaries, working collectively towards the establishment of a world Communist government, which, by definition, will be a world dictatorship.
It is difficult for the West to understand the Leninist Hegelian dialectical method — the creation of competing or successive opposites in order to achieve an intended outcome. Equally difficult for us to comprehend is the fact that these Leninist revolutionaries plan their strategies over decades and generations. This extraordinary behavior is naturally alien to Western politicians, who can see no further than the next election. Western politicians usually react to events. Leninist revolutionaries create events, in order to control reactions to them and manipulate their outcomes.
and you can see this exact take on things in people like Russian, our own cia being antianticommunist... and media (see any movies covering this stuff ever?)...
russians whole argument is that they changed...
everyone elses argument is that they didnt, and that things would turn out differently if different people were in power... an impossiblity as long as any of the old structure remains.
now remember, that it was russians whoe mentioned oleg..
Before Gorbachev — acting on the instructions of the Leninist strategic collective — embarked upon perestroika, he achieved a breakthrough by convincing the former British Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher, that he was someone she could do business with. This was done by personal contact, and through the intermediation of a dispatched defector, Oleg Gordievsky, his role being to reassure the British government that Gorbachev was "genuine." in her book The Downing Street Years, Lady Thatcher even admits that she mistook Gorbachev's style for the substance. I explain this in my introduction to Golitsyn's new book: "As he cast his spell [over Mrs. Thatcher], Gorbachev unlocked the key to the control of the Western mind — and to the restructuring of the entire world. The West followed Lady Thatcher's prompting, mistaking the style for the substance. The disastrous consequences of this millennial error are now crowding in upon Western civilization, threatening its very survival."
The purpose of perestroika, culminating in the "Break with the Past," has been to convince the gullible West that Communism is dead, that the Soviet Union has collapsed, and that we are friends, not enemies anymore — a lie which was duly embedded in the Joint Declaration of Twenty-Two States, signed by Western and Warsaw Pact leaders on November 19, 1990. The Declaration asserted that the signatories are "no longer adversaries," and represented the culmination of the deception which had been managed for Western public consumption by Gorbachev's close KGB associate, Georgi Arbatov. Since publishing an article in the June 1988 issue of Kommunist, in which he said that "the image of the enemy" was being eroded and was vanishing, Arbatov had repeated this message at every opportunity. Of course, as a trained Leninist revolutionary who followed Lenin's advice to his associates to use language deceptively, Arbatov meant that the enemy would continue to exist. It was only his image which was to "vanish."
Artfldgr says:
i should mention that new lies for old was written during the breshnev era...
its many predictions have almost all come true... (four out of 149 remain)
reading the book is scary. scarier now than when it was written because when it was written the predictions seems absurd.
the fall of the wall. war in checnya. peristroika, the list goes on and on. and yet, for convenience he is not paid attention to, but others who have contridicted themselves, and not predicted much of anythign are listened (because there is an agenda).
ultimately, golitsyn said that russia and china would team up against the west. (think material from russia, bodies from china)
golitsyn was present and part of the work to creat the new islamic jihad against the west.
take some time, and go through the symbolism.. note the recuring communist colors and symbols. the hand and fist, the red and black, etc.
Golitsyn provided an entire chapter of such predictions, containing 194 distinct auguries. Of these, 46 were not soon falsifiable (it was too early to tell, e.g., whether Russian economic ministries would be dissolved); another 9 predictions (e.g., of a prominent Yugoslavian role in East-Bloc liberalization) seemed clearly wrong. Yet of Golitsyn's falsifiable predictions, 139 out of 148 were fulfilled by the end of 1993 -- an accuracy rate of nearly 94 percent. Among events correctly foreseen: "the return to power of Dubcek and his associates" in Czechoslovakia; the reemergence of Solidarity" and the formation of a "coalition government" in Poland; a newly "independent" regime in Romania; "economic reforms" in the USSR; and a Soviet repudiation of the Afghanistan invasion. -Golitsyn even envisioned that, with the "easing of immigration controls" by East Germany, "pressure could well grow for the solution of the German problem [by] some form of confederation between East and West," with the result that "demolition of the Berlin Wall might even be contemplated."
do note that all that was written and published in 1984.
Those who continue to ignore Golitsyn's accuracy do so at their own risk. Such people are being slowly but surely discredited themselves, however smug they now appear. Golitsyn was so prescient in his predictions about a Chechen war leading to a change in the Russian government, that he even got the details right. "The transition might be brought about," said Golitsyn, "by the resignation of Yeltsin. ..."
In our own private lives we discover that knowing a person enables us to predict that person's future actions. But if we are constantly wrong in predicting those actions, maybe we don't know the person after all.
this is why the apologists have to make constant adjustments when those who are pointing out say... look at this..
they haev to keep pooh poohing till something so terrible happens.. but even then thats not enough!
If Golitsyn's predictions have been accurate, if his analysis continues to withstand the test of time, then the critics must eventually revise their criticism. There is no rational argument against a man who has proven himself again and again.
there is also a famous story about Vosjoli... the only french intelligence officer to defect to america... turned out that golitsyn said that the SDECE was compromisd by KGB... through a long story, the information to test this turned out to prove it, and that once found, this agent was to be killed by his own agency. he defected in 63.
so thats how long ago someone wrote down what will happen, and that most of it has happened. that same person claimed to be in on the plan since he was not a small fish.
this test was done between his talks to defect and his defection... and so he was able to inject a request that later ended up from KGB to the french... which showed that he was telling the truth, and so we helped him defect. (later on, when the truth was too crazy to believe and a new more soviet sympathetic state, and persons were in office, nosenko was used to discredit golitsyn, but nosenko was a VERY poor diversion... the only reason it worked was that the agency was also compromised, as was known since as far back as the new deal)
he was vetted by several agencies that put him through the ringer... but it was more politically expedient and fit the new direction to ignore him and take the bait and accept that russias old time leadership have found religion and converted to free markets, property ownership, and so forth.
the con man can con because the victim WANTS to hear the con more than the victim wants to hear the truth.
ultimately it was golitsyns pig headedness at walking the walk they wanted to walk that got him ignored... the office had their proceedures, and like good little beuracrats, they know that if they stick to it, no matter what happens, they cant be in trouble.
golitsyn was able to rack off from memory documents that only the top people got to see (one of his handlers was the report writer). this ended up getting the director of british intelligence and his deputy fingered as soviet spies and were watched.
its interesting to read these old books... its even more interesting to read old stuff like commitern orders and things from the 50s that explicitly say what good fellow travelers should be doing.. some of it is entered into the congressional record... but alas, no one knows science, history, etc..
they do know how to repeat lines that someone else feeds them... but little more than that.. and its that precise behavior that makes sociopathic socialists want to take care of them and makes them think they are too stupid to take care of themselves.
please forgive the lengths today..
there wasnt any where else people are discussing this RATIONALLY...
[there is no plave for me to follow up that just as i said it would, syria and isreal heated up, and they attempted to bomb turkey with a delivery from europe.. of course they havent realized yet that that van came from and was driven through europe with 600 lbs of plastic. however.. iraq, and afghanistan are not something you can hit to distract... iran is the object, so they cant.. this leaves syria, and others to make lots of noice. and the only helper state still helping (now that spain went socialist), is turkey. as i said, the desperation is to keep that weapons door open... even isreal ultimately might not want it closed, what would happen to isreal if everyone stopped attacking it? and if they did, what would happen to that assumed joint existence with the US? perhaps distance. who knows. i cant tell... ultimately i can only see on the map what needs to be done, then the rest falls into place based on that. after all, isnt maps what leaders look at when they want things?)
Artfldgr says:
By the way, TU-95s (Bear)are not that "rust buckets". They are counterparts of B-52s and designed at about the same time.
Actually not right (as usual with your assertions)...
That was the period of the start of the cold war arms games. The Russians had and have a long history of stealing things to make more economical the development (its their way of making up the difference in productivity to create the illusion of parity). However tupelov was another breed, he didn’t want to copy.
he spent years in prison in cold storage till Russia decided that his mind was useful enough... they had copied the b29 down to the bolts, a fact that their version is standard and not metric... but tupelov wanted to design a new bomber, not copy. However when you compare the dates, most of it was stolen but not admitted.
The proper designation is the tu-95M, otherwise known as the BEAR A. there is no tu-95A (other designations go from B through J, and have different purposes, but M is the bomber)
This is mixing up either the two designations in Russia, or trying to equivocate it with the B-52A which never was in production and was a test model, and the B-52B which WAS made and put into production.
Development of the b52 started with other designations in 1946
Went through many versions (464-17/464-29/464-40, etc), and revisions as it was being developed to its final form.
While they had these model versions up in the air in less than a year they were based first on experimenting with things and starting with other plane components starting with the b47 stratojet.
The first operational plane that flew (the A), was in 1951 and they were developed in parallel with the test versions. The first wing deployed was in 1956
While the development of the tu-95m started in 1951
The first flight was a year later… so from design to flight was about a year…
And first deployed Augest 1957
Wow, arent they great? They did the same work that took the US a decade, a dozen variations and test flights, and whamo.. in one year they have a test (the year they stole the final plans of the b52), and the same time to ramp up production. poor tupelov.
However whats makes them “rust buckets” is the different philosophies of the two countries. This is also what makes their tanks death traps.
The kremlin does not value life, and so their systems do not try very hard to save the lives of the people in them. They do not go anywhere as far as the west does. They also do not maintain their equipment to the same high level and such. Lower quality, lower maintenance, lower everything.
So they are not what you imagine them to be.
However the worst part is your inability to comprehend any truth about a situation.
But the bombers are just flying around.
The only plains that “just fly around” are plains in the west OWNED by people who fly recreationally, and even they usually have a REASON.
Bears in the Air are VERY expensive to run. Their nuclear weapons are not the same, and any situational analysis would have to take a look at this situation.
While the US did fly planes near russia, we did NOT fly nuclear armed bombers into their space to be escorted out. This is a fundamental difference. B-52s would have been shot down like gary powers and the technology of our nuclear weapons would be directly in their hands.
On the flip side, they know we will NOT shoot them down and will escort them, and so their test WITH weapons is a VERY different beast.
When B-52s get close to others space today its because they carry sigint electronics (like the one that went down and transferred tons of technology to china because our modern soldiers cared more about themselves than they cared about the outcome!)
How does someone make up for slow? Easy, they get close. So this is where your tactically ignorant. If your missiles and planes are slow, the real attack distance is not the 3000km. but what happens when such a missile is within air space?
Do you know how close air space is? lets give them the benefit and accept that they were outside, but BARELY outside which is why there is an issue.
You can go here http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200106/ai_n9002388/pg_2
And here for part 2 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200106/ai_n9002388/pg_5
And you can read about a large number of “shoot downs” during the cold war.
There is no similar number of shoot downs of soviets during that period. there is also no similar keeping of soldiers (later learned to be part of bio experiments), and withholding of the dead. And a host of differnces… but you think everything is the same.
Want to know how far international space is? less than 200 miles…
How fast can a missle that is intended to fly 3000km go if its launched 200 miles out?
But wait… what kind of tsunami wave would be created if they dropped on in the sea 200 miles out?
On 23 August 1956, a USN Martin P4M Mercator, on patrol in the Taiwan Strait (at the strait's north end) was intercepted by two Chinese Air Force MiG 15s. The P4M was carrying a crew of sixteen. The MiG-15s intercepted the P4M, approximately 140 miles north of Taiwan, 32 miles from the Chinese coast. All crew members on the aircraft were lost off coastal city of Wen Chow.
On 23 December 1957, a USAF Lockheed T-33 was lost. The trainer had been modified for intelligence gathering. The T-33 was listed as missing over the Adriatic Sea off the Yugoslavia coast, with the pilot never recovered.
A USAF RB-50 (in early 1958) on a reconnaissance collection mission, flying from Turkey, along the southern border of the Soviet Union, disappeared because of unknown causes. Later, along the same area of operations (also in early 1958), another American aircraft disappeared. No information was released by American authorities on the type of aircraft lost or circumstances for its loss.
On 6 March 1958, a USAF F-- 86D was lost off the coast of North Korea.
On 27 June 1958, a USAF C-118, with a crew of nine, strayed into Soviet air space. The C-118's navigator made a heading transfer plotting error and the aircraft flew into the Soviet Union. The C-118 was an enlarged version of the Douglas C-54 Skymaster. The C-- 118 was intercepted by two MiG 15s at low altitude, 30 miles inside the Soviet Union near the city of Yerevan, capital of Soviet Armenia, which shot down the US aircraft. The crew reported, after being handed over to American authorities,Soviet fighters continued to fire on the burning aircraft all the way to the ground.
On 2 September 1958, a USAF C-- 130A, assigned to the 7406th Support Squadron, Wiesbaden Air Force Base, Germany, with 17 personnel on board, was shot down by Soviet aircraft.
On 31 October 1958, a USAF RB-- 47E with a crew of three was on a reconnaissance collection mission over the Black Sea. It was intercepted by two MiG 17s. The fighters fired their cannons but did not hit the American aircraft.
Another RB-47E on a reconnaissance mission on 7 November 1958, within international air space of the Baltic Sea east of the Swedish island of Gotland, was attacked by two MiG 17s but not hit.
Ten days later, another RB-47E operating in the Baltic Sea, again in international waters, was fired on by two MiG 17s but not hit and evaded the Soviet fighters.
the Sea of Japan, another RB-47E was jumped by two MiG 17s off the Kamchatka peninsula but no hits were recorded.
USN P2V, on routine patrol on 16 June 1959, was fired on by North Korean MiG 15s over the Sea of Japan 85 miles east of Wonsan - well out into international waters.
the morning of 1 May 1960 Gary Powers spy plane was shot down… (after years of trying), the U2 carries no weapons only cameras.
On 25 May 1960, a C-47 with a crew of nine went down near the Yugoslavia border. All nine aboard the C-47 were lost
On 1 July 1960, an RB-- 47E stationed at RAF Brize Norton, England, and assigned to the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing with a crew of six was shot down by two MiG 17s some 130 miles off the coast of the Kola peninsula. Soviet ships pulled the two American officers from the water, transported them to Moscow where they were held in custody at Lubyanka Prison, interrogated, tried, but released to US authorities on 25 January 1961.
On 6 August 1963, while flying off the coast of North Korea in international air space a North Korean MiG17 attacked what the Department of Defense classified as a light aircraft. It shot down the light aircraft, with all six crew men killed.
On 24 January 1964, a USAF T-39 was lost. All three crew members were killed, with no official explanation released for the loss.
A USAF RB-66B, on 10 March 1964, was the next aircraft lost. The RB-66B was on a intelligence collection mission along the East German border when it went down.
In December 1965, an RB-57F, assigned to the 7407th Support Squadron, Wiesbaden, West Germany, temporarily operating from Incirlik, Turkey, with a crew of two disappeared over the southern section of the Black Sea. Due to its going down in the Black Sea, the aircraft's disappearance was considered suspect. The General Dynamics/Martin RB-57F was a twoseat, high-altitude (able to operate above 65,000 feet) photo-reconnaissance platform that operated until 1974. wreckage from the RB-57F was located and delivered to US authorities which indicated the American aircraft had been attacked by Soviet fighters.
30 June 1968, a large US aircraft was lost, either a National Security Agency (NSA) or CIA DC-8. all survived but the details were not released.
The largest single loss of US aircrew was on a USAF EC-121. The Lockheed EC-121 Warning Star was an adaptation of the sleek and elegant Lockheed Super Constellation and was fitted with distinctive top/bottom fuselage radar. Its primary mission was as a long-range patrol and early warning aircraft, as well as electronic surveillance. While on patrol, the EC-121 was jumped by an undetermined number of North Korean MiG 17s on 15 April 1969, well out over the Sea of Japan in international waters. All 31 crew members were killed.
21 October 1970 a US Army U-8 light transport with a crew of four operating out of Turkey. It went down along the Turkish northern border
So the responses are different… care to do some research and check out how many of theirs the west shot down?
Basically, their flights are not with intelligence gathering equipment, they are with WEAPONS… in this way, there is no way to tell if they will drop or not.
In this way, what they are trying to do is PAVLOVIAN…
Or to simple people like you, they are crying wolf over and over to desensitize the west who REFUSES to be as aggressive, nasty, and such in return.
This is the key thing that you cant reletevate away… a key difference… that a represenatational democracy has a limit which is attached to the REAL outrage of its own population.
A totalitarian, authoritarian state, has NO limit such as this. none whatsoever. In fact they don’t even have internal limits… and they don’t have any limits to catastrophic reorganization on a design or whim.
What would you say if the US started flying BOMBERS to russia? The planes I listed are the PUBLIC shoot downs.. there are a lot more unknown ones (and no one as far as I know is using freedom of information act to research that).
Our responses are asymmetrical to theirs. And actually tend to be ‘nicer’… this doesn’t mean we cant walk the walk and such, it only means that we choose not to do so that way.
Artfldgr says:
think, killing by secret services nowadays is an extrodnary thing. Very rare. Even for CIA or MI-5 with its famous James Bond. I think it may happen only in the case of a seriouse threat to their network.
Your not too bright…
The reason war is our only option is that Clinton and others have insured that our intelligence services are not capable of using assassination or torture, which is why they have to play games to get around it.
this is not done to have parity, but to meet the morals of the west, and to put us at a disadvantage with a state that has NO such limitation at all.
in fact, their laws state that not only can they kill internally, but they can also kill externally and that is not limited to Russian citzens but ANY person they feel they want to do it to.
You will not find stories of assassinations since the 70s and 80s.. its not there.. we don’t do it. neither does MI-5, and james bond was a fantasy character… HOWEVER, smersh and some of the villains in the EARLY stories were REAL.
Your so busy reading propaganda your not tracking facts, which is its purpose.
The key word in your sentence is “I think” which is a word that is use to preface a statement of imagination, or guessing. Its very different than “I know”…
Depending on which place you go and how you categorize it, being a undertaker for the SVR and FSB is still a lucrative business.
I cant upload it, but I have one spread sheet with 300 journalists killed in 10 years..
That list does not cover people like litvenenko, but only journalists.
This is your idea of an “extraordinary thing”
I am sorry, but several state murders a month in one category alone, makes it an ORDINARY thing
Here is a short list of some from wiki since the fall of the wall
•
• Giorgi Chanturia, (1994), Georgian opposition leader
• Vladislav Listyev, (1995), a Russian journalist and head of the ORT TV Channel
• Dzhokhar Dudayev, (1996), first Chechen separatist President and anti-Russian guerrilla leader
• Galina Starovoitova, (1998), influential politician, then member of Russian parliament (Duma)
• Ruslan Chimayev, (1998), Chechen rebel politician
• Otakhon Latifi, (1998), Tajik journalist and opposition figure
• Vasgen Sarkissian, (1999), Prime Minister of Armenia
• Karen Demirchian, (1999), speaker of Armenian parliament
• Leonard Petrossian, (1999), Karabakh politician
• Georgiy Gongadze, (2000), Ukrainian journalist
• Valentin Tsvetkov, (2002), governor of Magadan
• Sergei Yushenkov, (2003), Russian politician, in Moscow [1]
• Yuri Shchekochikhin, (2003), Russian journalist, in Moscow [2]
• Georgy Tal, (2004), leading Russian businessman
• Paul Klebnikov, (2004), editor of the Russian edition of Forbes magazine
• Akhmad Kadyrov, (2004), Kremlin-backed President of the Chechen Republic
• Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, (2004), former President of separatist Chechnya
• Aslan Maskhadov, (2005), President of Chechnya
• Anatoly Trofimov, (2005), former FSB deputy director
• Elmar Huseynov, (2005), Azerbaijani journalist
• Zhirgalbek Surabaldiyev, (2005), Kyrgyz MP and businessman
• Magomed Omarov, (2005), deputy Interior Minister of Dagestan
• Bayaman Erkinbayev, (2005), Kyrgyz MP
• Altynbek Sarsenbayev, (2006), Kazakh politician
• Abdul-Khalim Sadulayev, (2006), President of separatist Chechnya
• Anna Politkovskaya, (2006), Russian journalist and human rights campaigner.
The number of assassinations in the UK
• Ian Gow, (1990), British Conservative politician
• Rosemary Nelson, (1999), Irish Catholic solicitor and human rights advocate
• Alexander Litvinenko, (2006) Russian critic of Vladimir Putin
And one of those is Russian too.
There is no list for the US
Russian says:
Artfldgr
Some things were stolen for sure, but Tu-95 is an original Russian project. I saw history channel program about the most successful aircrafts and it was there as an original design. Anyway. It was not my goal to prove the priorities, but just to say it is still a well functioning macine and is in sevice like its USA counterpart the B-52.
As about killing by secret serices you made something undigestable like a coctail from vodka, milk, root beer and rotten potatoes
Well, if you go to a cementary and write down the names from thumbstones of those who died in the last decade you will get even more to your list of "victims of secret services". But are they the ones?
I do not know who the hell were Giorgi Chanturia, Altynbek Sarsenbayev or Leonard Petrossian, and how any country's secret services are relevant to their death. In the situation of lawlessness on the territory of the former Soviet Union that developed after the Soviet Union had collapsed, a lot of businessmen, journalists, politicians, "wannabe politicians" and gangsters were killed. Sometimes they were businessmen and gangsters in the same person or businessmen and journalists. It was the time to seise opportunities and to grab the ownerless property of the collapsed state. So there was a battle for those opportunities and, of course, casualties. It was worse than Chicago in 30-s because there was no effective law-enforsement. I do not understand how all this is related to the secret services activities if, practically, the services "seased to exist" at that time.
You must know more about Russian life and situation there to talk about what you are talking.
Look at the list you have given:
(I do not go for a seriouse investigation, just what is on the surface)
Dzhokhar Dudayev, (1996), first Chechen separatist President, Chechen Commander in Staff-killed in war time by a rocket from Russian military plane. Actually "killed in action",- legitimate military target.
Akhmad Kadyrov, (2004), Kremlin-backed President of the Chechen Republic -assasinated by Chechen rebels
Aslan Maskhadov, (2005), Abdul-Khalim Sadulayev, (2006), both were Presidents of separatist Chechnya, both were "killed in action" because refused to surrender to Russian military personal and resisted with weapons in theire hands.
So what are you writing about?
PS. Thank you for explaining me that James Bond is a fictious charachter. Before that I thought he and Goldfinger were real.
Well, you have opend my eyes. Being an appreciative person I am going to open your eyes too. I tell you what you seem do not know yet: Russia is not a communist country any longer. Now she is a capitalist country. So forget Trotskiy, Lenin, Stalin and even Gorbachev. Russian ideology, motives and goals are absolutely different now.
You know, buddy, sometimes I joke. I like jokes. Do you know what jokes are? Do you want a joke about you?
Listen;
Publiuse Pundit awarded the title of The Best Commenter for the year 2007 to Artfldgr . As it was stated "For the most interesting, intelligible, well supported, short and clear comments.
Kim Zigfeld is intervewing the winner:
Kim: Are you happy with getting the award?
The winner: Artfldgr
Kim: Are you thinking about publishind a book of your comments here? If so, what would be the title of the book?
The winner: Artfldgr
And what would be the content?
The winner: Artfldgr
Kim: I wanna thank you for you contribution to the work of our blog too. What would you like to say to our readers in conclusion?
The winner: Artfldgr
Another Russian says:
Artfldgr, you should learn to spell Tupolev before flaunting your obvious falsehoods about Russian plane designs.
Just how is a TURBOPROP plane a copy of a JET plane, pray tell?
US wasn't even capable of manufacturing anything close to the powerful turboprop of Tu-95. Not to mention the Stealth technology which US stole from a Russian scientist.
"Bears in the Air are VERY expensive to run."
B-2's are even more expensive to run. While much less efficient.
"While the US did fly planes near russia, we did NOT fly nuclear armed bombers into their space to be escorted out. "
A plain LIE. During the 50:s the US waged an aggressive war of nerves by flying entire bomber flotillas deep into Northern Russia, every Western spy plane that "Stalin's Eagles" shot down was a nonsubtle hint to STOP THIS PRACTICE IMMEDIATELY. Which fully justifies every single shootdown accident you posted. NEVER EVER has a Soviet strategic bomber consciously entered Western airspace.
"While the development of the tu-95m started in 1951
The first flight was a year later… so from design to flight was about a year…"
Yes, so you admit that Russian engineers can solve a problem 10 times faster than the overpaid americans? Not a very positive discovery for you, I'd wager?
"The kremlin does not value life, and so their systems do not try very hard to save the lives of the people in them. They do not go anywhere as far as the west does. They also do not maintain their equipment to the same high level and such. Lower quality, lower maintenance, lower everything."
Tell it to the Challenger and Atlantis victims of Shuttle-rustbuckets. Talk about cutting corners!
Russian plane designs are far superior to Western ones, that's why they fly better and faster even with less-than-perfect manufacturing tolerances.
"because our modern soldiers cared more about themselves than they cared about the outcome"
Yes, that's why you are unable to win a single war since Civil War in 1850:s. Too much cowardice and indecision.
"Or to simple people like you, they are crying wolf over and over to desensitize the west who REFUSES to be as aggressive, nasty, and such in return. "
Ofcourse, mass-murdering Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis and Afganis doesn't constitute agressiveness in your book. You simply don't consider them as Humans.
"A totalitarian, authoritarian state, has NO limit such as this. none whatsoever. In fact they don’t even have internal limits… and they don’t have any limits to catastrophic reorganization on a design or whim. "
The Vietnam War showed clearly that USA is a Totalitarian State run by a Criminal Oligarchy. Nothing the american public could do about it, they simply didn't have a say.
"I cant upload it, but I have one spread sheet with 300 journalists killed in 10 years.. "
If you say that Kremlin killed off 300 journalists nilly-willy, I will call you a liar and propagandist. One has to substantiate every case, and NOBODY have done that. Lumping everybody together as some "victim" is just sheer Soviet-like propaganda, which you seem to have perfected to the fullest.
CIA killed 3000 people in two mined skyscrapers in 2001 Anno Domini, that is quite an achievemnet, don't you think?
"I am sorry, but several state murders a month in one category alone, makes it an ORDINARY thing"
Most of these 300 journalists were killed during Yeltsin era of mafiosis and oligarchs, that's the great "democrat" so loved by that proven liar Bill Clinton. Most of them probably victims of shady economic deals.
Several state murders by cops of ordinary citizens are happening every DAY in US, isn't it intolerable to be living in a Police State?
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