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Two "Democrats" Betray Democracy

Filed under: US Elections

There are three main contenders left for the presidency of the United States, two "Democrats" and a Republican. All three of them are U.S. Senators.

Yesterday, one of the most important votes in recent memory occurred in the Senate, over whether the U.S. should engage in coercive interrogation such as the infamous "waterboarding" technique. President Bush has said such techniques are necessary in the war on terror and vowed to veto the measure if it passes Congress.

Guess which way "Democrats" Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton voted. They voted for cowardice. In other words, they didn't show up and vote at all, becoming two of only four members of the whole Senate to fail to do so. That is a national disgrace, and ought to disqualify either one of them from serious consideration for the Oval Office.

John McCain, however, did vote. And so-called Mr. non-Conservative voted with President Bush, as did 45 other members of the Senate, sufficient to sustain a presidential veto. Given the fact that, unlike most other members of our society, Mr. McCain has actually be a prisoner of war and actually been subjected to coercive interrogation, one must think long and hard before disagreeing with his judgment. He's expressed necessary criticism of such interrogation techniques, but he's also shown he's willing to listen to conservative voices and take a stand. Here, the fundamentally insane nature of the nutroots leftist wackos is betrayed: If you see only one side of an issue, as they claim about Bush, you are evil. But if, like McCain, you acknowledge both sides and take a stand, you are also evil. The only way you're not evil is if you do exactly what they say (this from the folks who claim to stand for diversity and liberalism). And meanwhile, they choose not to notice the abject silence of their own so-called "leaders." This is, in a nutroot shell, why they haven't reelected an elected president with a majority since World War II, while Republicans have done it four different times.

In other words, McCain a great and courageous leader. And, by contrast, Clinton and Obama are cowering in the shadows like the craven cowards they are. Leadership? They don't know the meaning of the word. Ask yourself this: If he becomes president, how is Barack Obama going to protect us from terrorism? Will he crawl under a rock and hide? Or will he say to Osama bin Laden: "See, I'm black, so you don't need to hate America any more, I feel your pain"? Is that where we are headed? Maybe he'll pull a "Jimmy" and go so far as to boycott the Olympics? The prospect is too terrifying for words.

Let's be clear: What those who oppose coercive interrogation are saying is that we should sacrifice the lives of innocent American citizens if necessary in order to guarantee the civil rights of those who seek to bring America down. That's a noble ideal, and only an American would dare to assert it. But we're talking about exchanging American lives for, in some cases at least, a few seconds of discomfort, and anyone who thinks it's a simple no-brainer is a hopeless idiot, and anyone who would dare to lay claim to the presidency while ducking this issue should be . . . well, waterboarding is too good for them.

Shame on you, you two "Democrats." You have betrayed your country.

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Comments


John Ryan says:

Waterboarding is torture.

As for the Republicans, their chance of winning the White House is poor.


DCT says:

I'll agree with you on one part. Senators Clinton and Obama shirking their duty and not voting on an important issue does not say much about their leadership capabilities. Actually, it probably says more about them than all these months of campaigning that both of them have done.

Would I have respected them for their votes which ever way they went on the bill? No, respect does not come that easily. But if they did vote, at least voters would see whether they walk the walk as well as talk the talk, and they certainly do a lot of the latter.

I will not allow these two a pass just because they are out campaigning. Senator McCain's vote has made clear that that dog won't hunt. Indeed, their actions by not voting ranks as cowardice to me and an inability to actually grapple with important issues.

I can only imagine how these two will react in the face of other controversial issues if either of them does become president. Will they go the way of popular opinion? Perhaps. Will they make a principled stand regardless of the consequences to their poll ratings? Stunts like these don't give me much hope either of them will.

Are Senators Clinton and Obama made of that "presidential timber" that is important for the race they're in? If anything, they resemble sawdust which is good most times to soak up the vomit on the floors of bars. Their actions here certainly make me sick.


R. Mutt says:

Your so FULL OF IT , its hard to know where to start. Does the casual and constant accusations of treason leveled by every rapid, rightwing, neoconservative winnut at anyone who questioned the wisdom of invading a country that neither attacked us nor posed a clear and imminent threat qualify as respectfully seeing both sides of the issue?

You then go on to assert that anyone who disagrees with you is a "hopeless idiot". IMHO, you epitomize the worst traits of the American character: Intellectual dishonesty and moral shallowness married to an extreme ideological view of the world as our own to do with as we want, when we want, and however we want. Torture goes against the accepted norms of civilized societies and American principles of justice and honor. If waterboarding isn't torture, but just a few seconds of discomfort, as you so expertly assert, then I suppose it won't be long before you'll be advocating its use as a common law enforcement technique. Where are you going to draw the line next?

You're a pathetic excuse for an American: fearful, arrogant, bullying and self entitled. You don't hate radical islamists and terrorists half as much as you hate your own fellow countrymen, who you label as dangerous traitors for disagreeing with a tactic that most experts in intelligence claim is ineffectual. John McCain knows how to strongly and respectfully disagree with his democratic opponents. And while I disagree with him on most of the issues, I admire him for that. Which is a exceedingly more than I can say for your cheap, political potshots.


Mr. Stewart says:

Stop! You're partisan hackery is ruining this country! Please, stop!


David Terrenoire says:

What those who oppose coercive interrogation are saying is that we should sacrifice the lives of innocent American citizens if necessary in order to guarantee the civil rights of those who seek to bring America down.

Not at all. I oppose coercive interrogation because it does not work, it harms our standing in the world, it recruits more terrorists, and it violates the law.

That we could also be waterboarding innocent people who told a joke about Bill Clinton (look it up), should make all of us stop and consider what we gain and what we lose through this practice if we truly believe in the principle of innocence until proven guilty.

I don't like that Obama and Clinton dodged this vote, but don't automatically assume McCain is a paragon of leadership. He's desperately trying to win the conservative wing of the GOP and by voting with the president, he knows that this vote will not come back to haunt him with his base, and he knows that he'll be voting for a bill the Democrats can't oppose with the numbers needed to overcome a filibuster.

In other words, cynical calculation.

That sword cuts both ways.


LiberalPercy says:

If showing up for Senate votes is a measure of leadership, then Sen. McCain is the worst. The only Senator who has missed more votes than McCain this session is Tim Johnson - who is recovering from a brain hemorage.
What's McCain's excuse? Extreme wimpery?

The man who has previously been adamant about the evil of torture is now forced by you right-wingnuts to toe your line to get your support. Kind of looks like the "straight talk express" went off the tracks into hypocrite's canyon.

Good job!


Rand says:

Odd that following your party blindly on an issue you supposedly disagree with in an effort to gain favor is "seeing both sides."


Vova says:

You are asking, "If he becomes president, how is Barack Obama going to protect us from terrorism?" and I have an answer you might not like: Preemptive surrender


Bryson Brown says:

So much spin-- John McCain tosses aside principle to advance his political standing with the lawbreaking pro-torture extremists, and somehow this shows he 'sees both sides'? Both sides of what? Oh, yeah, of course: the side where it's wrong when they do it, and the side where it's right if we do it! There's a real slogan for todays Republicans!


conman says:

I guess we can officially start calling him John McFlip-Flop. Oh, but don't worry, John Kerry's label as a flip-flopper didn't hurt his chances in 2004.


La Russophobe says:

JOHN RYAN:

You seem to be dodging the issue, just like the Dumbocrats.

It's meaningless to say that waterboarding is torture. The point is this:

Are you prepared to sacrifice innocent American lives to terror events that could have been prevented by waterboarding in order to guarantee the civil rights of terrorists (and avoid any innocent person being wrongly waterboarded). If so, what are your reasons?

You seem to imply that there are no negative consequences of rejecting waterboarding, and don't say whether you would reject all "torture" or only waterboarding, nor do you define "torture." That is a shameful failure on your part, and I challenge you to correct it. We will never solve this issue with such superficial and meaningless analysis.


Adam H. says:

You seem to be dodging the issue, just like the Dumbocrats.

It's meaningless to say that waterboarding is torture.

Wrong! The WHOLE ISSUE is that waterboarding IS torture, and you both support and applaud that torture! The US had Japanese soldiers prosecuted as war criminals for using waterboarding on Allied troops. Now, you claim that torture is effective - against all expert conclusions to the contrary, with nothing to show that it works besides scare scenarios that belong on 24 - and applaud the practice that is torture and a war crime!


Aris Katsaris says:

I won't waste my time trying to debate with people who seriously use phrases like "coercive interrogation" instead of "torture".

And torture has historically been used primarily for one purpose: to take false confessions. It's currently used for the same purpose, and the Spanish Inquisition points the way for today's Republicans it seems.

But the sort of person who uses kindergarten insults like "Dumbocrats" is probably the same sort of person who thinks Jack Bauer is real and that torturing people saves LA from a few nuclear bombs every year.


La Russophobe says:

ARIS:

How long have you had this fantasy that you get to decide what language other people can use? You're not a descendant of Stalin by any chance, are you?

As a typical coward, you refuse to define torture or accept responsibility for lives lost by bowing to civil liberties, nor do you offer any better way of dealing with the need for information. Did you even read my link before you spewed out your sanctimonious, vapid drivel?

Dude, you're part of the problem, not the solution. The arrogance oozing out of your pores is pretty extreme for someone who only leaves bird-dropping like comments on other people's blogs.


Aris Katsaris says:

"How long have you had this fantasy that you get to decide what language other people can use?"

You can freely use whatever language you want. And I can freely make my judgements on you depending on the language you use.

E.g. when you use "Dumbocrat", I judge that you are a kindergartener. And when you use the words "coercive interrogation", I judge you are a cowardly propagandist who doesn't even dare use the word "torture".

"As a typical coward, you refuse to define torture"

The United Nation's definition of torture is good enough:

Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

"accept responsibility for lives lost by bowing to civil liberties, "

You've failed to make the case that *any* lives are lost by bowing to civil liberties. I don't think *any* lives would be lost by abolishing torture. I have no reason to believe they would be lost.

Torture obviously forces people to speak, but as I've already said in my last post, it's been traditionally used to force people to speak LIES. No torture has been devised that forces its victim to speak true information.

But people who don't care whether they receive true or false information obviously won't care about that. Who cares about whether Iraq had WMDs or not, as long as we had the confessions of tortured terrorists saying that it did have them.

How many lives were "saved" by going to Iraq under false information that it had WMDs? I think many lives are *lost* because of the false information that torture provides.


Artfldgr says:

Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

By that definition Socialist states torture their people every time..

apply that defintion to a 'planned economy' and what one has to do to have one.

Russia then is one big torture fest.

thanks for making it clear.


Wynter says:

You are hardly worth the time to write this comment. I find your lack of comprehension of the entire issue disturbing. McCain's "cave-in" vote for Waterboarding should be the target of this article, not Obama and Clinton. McCain was a POW and has been against torture for years. But now under pressure from the GOP he caves in and gives in to his party's wishes. This coming from a man that said he wouldn't pander to the right is pretty low.

Next time you want to use "Treason" in an article why not put it in the correct context. The Bush Administration is the treasonous group you need to worry about. They are the ones perverting the U.S. Constitution for their own ends. Clean up after yourselves before you cross lines and go after those looking to "fix" Bush's mistakes that the GOP allowed.

Disgraceful,
Wynter


John Ryan says:

Yes I am willing to put MY life on the line in support of the US Constition. I live in NYC which many consider toi be a prime target for terrorism. However, I am still against torture.
Torture is EXCELLENT in order to produce confessions, and shouls always be used if this is your only goal.

Western civilization was saved from Satanic witchcraft only because torture was used. Using torture not only convinced witches to confess they would also give up the name s of other witches, including the most difficult to find "sleeper witches"
La Russophobe if "saving lives" were your only criterion for allowing torture would you agree that it should be routinely done to ALL P.O.Ws ? drug suspects ?







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